#211 Intentional Therapists, Dr. Melissa Teissen and Dr. Karen Dyck

Solving Healthcare with Dr. Kwadwo Kyeremanteng

#211 Intentional Therapists, Dr. Melissa Teissen and Dr. Karen Dyck

January 15, 2023

#211 Intentional Therapists, Dr. Melissa Teissen and Dr. Karen Dyck

Episode Summary

“In this episode we welcome back to the show clinical phycologists Dr. Karen Dyck and Dr. Melissa Tiessen. This one is all about self-care. Getting in touch with yourself, wellness and more!”



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We are on the brink of a mental health crisis and this is why I am so appreciative of the folks over at BetterHelp. It provides the largest online counseling platform worldwide to change the way people get help with facing life’s challenges by providing convenient, discreet, and affordable access to licensed therapists that are helped make a difference professional counseling available anytime, anywhere through a computer, tablet, or smartphone, sign up today go to better and use a promo code solving healthcare and get 10% off signup fees. COVID has affected us all and with all the negativity surrounding it, it’s often hard to find the positive. One of the blessings that is given us is the opportunity to build an avenue for creating change. Starting right here in our community discussing topics that affect us most such as racism and health care, maintaining a positive mindset, creating change, the importance of advocacy, and the many lessons we have all learned from COVID. If you or your organization are interested in speaking engagements, send a message to [email protected], or Reach out on Facebook and Quantcast or online at Dr. Welcome to solving healthcare. I’m calling your care man. I’m an ICU and palliative care physician here in Ottawa and the founder of resource optimization network. We are on a mission to transform healthcare in Canada. I’m going to talk with physicians, nurses, administrators, patients and their families because inefficiencies, overwork and overcrowding affects us all. I believe it’s time for a better health care system that’s more cost effective, dignified, and just for everyone involved. Quick estimation, solving wellness community we got a special episode. And it’s all about self care. Something that’s so important during this time, with the in an era where we’re seeing more burnout, more clinicians leaving the profession more than ever, and this is a group like intentional therapists. So this is Dr. Karen Deke and Dr. Melissa teesing. That are clinical psychologists that really organized a group intentional therapists that are all about self care. And we talk about the four C’s that they’ve established connection, compassion, creativity, and courage as truly the foundation on how they promote self care for healthcare professionals. And it’s a really great conversation and tools that I think that we can all apply. You can see some of their content on solving wellness, because you know what I’m saying we want to promote their love. And if you haven’t joined solving wellness yet, I don’t know what the hell’s going down. But go to sovereign where you get your online workouts, yoga classes, cooking tips, cooking classes, mindful meditation, productivity tips, and just that community where we support each other, and just promote overall wellness, so that we get through these tough times and support each other. So someone $99 for the year, $9.99 per month, and yes, first one is free. So without further ado, let’s jump on it. Karina Melissa. Let’s go Kwad Cast nation. We have a special episode today with the intentional therapist. I love what they’re doing. And it’s all about that self care, which is so important during this time. And really underrated we talked a little bit about the show, but we’re gonna dive hard into it today with Dr. Melissa t sin. And Dr. Karen dick. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having us. Really happy to be here. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Absolutely. So I think we’ll start with you, Melissa. Like what started this your your initiative here in terms of intentional therapists, like what brought this on? Yeah, so Karen and I have actually known each other for over a decade. At this point, I had the very fortunate opportunity to be one of Karen’s supervisees at the beginning of my career, not the Karen is not much older than me, but just how it worked out. And we have stayed in touch over the years. And a few years ago, we were both sort of at a point in our careers, where we wanted to do something a little bit different and have a bit of a different reach beyond individual therapy. And one of the things that was really important to both of us because of some of the roles that we had been in previously both having worked in rural community mental health settings, university and hospital based settings, and I’d also worked in fact for the Canadian Psychological Association myself. I Have, we really had had a broad range of experiences and had worked with a number of different health professionals, and really saw the importance of self care as being so foundational to our work. And we also recognize, though, that as much as we all talk about the importance of self care, and we talk about the research that supports the importance of self care, most of the workshops or resources that are out there don’t really support therapists or other health professionals in truly attending to our self care in a meaningful way. So we thought, let’s try to create something ourselves that can that can help address this amazing, amazing, because I really think this is probably I know, what’s under appreciated under valued is that we need to be able to take care of ourselves, to be able to take care of others. And so, you know, like, Karen, what was what was, what was the driver for you like was, it was a same thing, as Melissa was saying, but like, what, what really got you to make that extra step to get this to get this initiative going? No, I think there were a few things. And, you know, like Melissa had had an opportunity to work in a lot of different settings. And, you know, I, I imagine you might agree with this, but it’s a bit disheartening, actually, when we look at the overall health care system, and how wellness and self care really isn’t talked a lot about for the health care providers, and yet they they provide such an important service. So you know, in my work with different systems, that really became evident, and I actually just started reading about workplace wellness and, and programs aimed at improving staff health. And I think at the point when Melissa and I were really looking for something different, I think I was, you know, honestly, I think I was probably also feeling like, boy, I need to do a bit of a better job with my own self care, and, and recognizing and just speaking with other mental health professionals, and particularly female mental health professionals, that there’s perhaps some unique challenges that come with being a healthcare provider and being a female, and just really wanting to get the conversations going. Because, you know, we’ve really realized that our training doesn’t address this issue, it doesn’t prepare us for what’s referred to as our workplace hazards. And so I think we go into these careers, just feeling like we should be able to listen to people’s hardships and tragedies, and be able to regulate our own thoughts and emotions, when we’re sitting with people who are suffering. And that it just, we should just be able to do it, there shouldn’t be any negative effects. And if we are feeling some negative effects, it says something about us, and maybe we didn’t pick the right profession. And so I think it can be really stigmatizing, actually, and, and oftentimes, it causes people to not talk about this. And I think we just really value this piece. And we we value the contributions that mental health professionals and other health care providers make, and they need to be taken care of 100%. And I mean, take this with a grain of salt, I have a unique perspective, with my wife, being a clinical psychologist. And I do think there’s a unique aspect from the female side. Because, you know, you’re often balancing your career, you’re balancing a potentially growing family. You know, you’re you’ve got to balance these things. And you have this often a high expectation that yourself because you’re, you know, your healthcare, professional, mental health professional, and you feel like you guys often are super, like impenetrable, but you are human beings. So I really think what you guys are attending to do is so, so important. And so maybe, Melissa, if you could comment in terms of what you guys like what your approach has been to promoting self care overall with intentional therapists. Yeah, so one of our really important messages is expanding the concept of self care to begin with, right? So self care absolutely includes the typical things we might think of like sleep, exercise, eating good foods, relaxation, meditation, all of these things are incredibly important. But on their own, they’re often not sufficient. And because of course, there’s a lot of, let’s say, limiting beliefs that can also contribute to how effective we are at our own self. hear it or not, and especially as female mental health professionals, there’s, there’s some very specific limiting beliefs that can get in the way. But for any of us male or female mental health professional, medical professional, whatever your background is, there can be a whole range of limiting beliefs that might get in the way. And one of them can just be how we’re defining self care. So one of our first sort of premises is how we’re defining self care and really thinking about it through a broad lens. And in particular, what what we have developed is a framework that emphasizes four things that we think are really key when it comes to broadening our definition of self care, which is connection, compassion, courage, and creativity. I love all of this. Because so we got connection, compassion, creativity. Courage, okay, actually, I’m going to start with the courage because this one’s not a typical one. And I must say, I have a lot of opinions on courage. And I don’t want to make it about me. But maybe Karen will tell me a little bit about the courage aspect of amongst these four C’s. Yeah, so it is interesting. I think it’s one of the pillars that people have the greatest reaction to right, like Courage, how does that fit in? And I think, you know, for sure, if we think of the more traditional self care, right, going for massages, having good chocolate, right all about that, yeah, that doesn’t take a lot of courage that those are the easy things and in some respects, but what really does take the courage is to go against some of the unhelpful beliefs and messages that have come our way and interfere with self care. And, you know, I think for people who are in caregiving professions, oftentimes there’s, there’s messages that go along with that, right, and how much of our time and energy we should be devoting to taking care about others. And we might have gotten a lot of unhelpful messages about caring for ourselves and the importance of that. And so it’s about going against some of those messages that we might get, and certainly recognizing that, unfortunately, women get a lot of messages, right and often from from very young age are kind of giving given the message that they’re these caregivers, and that’s their primary role. And so if they do anything to focus on their own needs, a lot of guilt can come up a lot of discomfort, and we need courage to go against those things and be able to put some of the important self care practices into place. But encouraged goes even beyond that, for psychologists, right, our services aren’t covered by, you know, the provincial health plans. And a lot of what we struggle with is setting, feeling okay, about about charging reasonable fees, right, the recommended rates, having boundaries, that outline, cancellation policies and things like that. So we also think about that piece as taking a lot of courage to, you know, feel like we’re getting reimbursed at a fair rate, putting our needs ahead of others at times. And, and I think that the other piece is willing to reach out and accept help, that takes a lot of courage, and whether that’s delegating, you know, hiring people to help us a lot of us feel like in some ways, we should be able to do it all. And so we can, we can feel kind of guilty or uncomfortable about that. So that takes courage. And, you know, sometimes we absolutely need our own mental health services. And that’s how we keep ourselves healthy and keep doing as best job we can. But again, that that also takes courage to admit, you know, gosh, here I am a clinical psychologist and I’m having some struggles and it’s, it’s okay, because I I’m human first and psychologist second 100% And I think I just really, at a personal level, just loved hearing that. The courage aspect because I must say, with most life transformation, transformative activities approaches like it at all, like that is essential. Like I you know, I, you know, just at a personal level one I think about some of the stuff we’ve done for advocacy around during the pandemic and, and for other health care professionals for bipoc community. You know, you You have to stick you need the courage because you’re putting yourself out there had that vulnerability aspect. But it’s, it can be dramatic, it could have such impactful change in life that for the, for the better. And so I often use I guess maybe I didn’t put it in that context for, for self care directly, but I often will bring up the importance of courage that that will get you to where you want to get to, by stepping out of your comfort zone. Melissa, what about talk to me about creativity, because this is one also that I mean, I love talking about like, we’re on this show because of a creative creativity element to life. So tell me a little bit about this. Yeah, creativity is another so important pillar for us. And again, I think something that people don’t automatically think of when they think of self care. But the reality is, and I guess we should say, we also think of creativity in the context of creativity and play as well. And of course, kids are fantastic at this right? Adults, often not so much, or we need a lot of courage to be more creative, right to, to let down some of our guard and, and seriousness, right. And the thing is that creativity and play are actually foundational to our existence as human beings. And so it’s really a, you know, such a shame that as we grow up, we lose so much of our innate ability to engage in creative pursuits to engage in play. And of course, as any child psychologist knows, play is how kids learn, right play is how kids develop skills to be good humans. So it really is, again, foundational to, to just development of the brain as well. But the other really fascinating aspect of creativity is that if we think of creativity, not as like being an artist, right, but just simply creating things, producing something, as opposed to consuming something in particular, as opposed to passively consuming something, right, when we’re creating something, we’re really in the act of producing something. And so that could be, you know, making supper that could be making a painting or anything in between. But there’s such an important difference, especially now in 2021, almost 2022, maybe 2022, when people are listening to this, the reality is that so much of our time these days is often unfortunately, engaged in non creative pursuits, right? Were engaged in just passively consuming information or just receiving information, right? Whether it’s social media, or just reading information online, especially throughout the pandemic, right? How many countless hours have we all spent consuming news, whether on television or on the internet, and that just has such a different impact on literally on our nervous system, as opposed to creating something especially when we can use our hands to create something because using our hands for tools is also part of what makes us human. So it’s just such a foundational piece of being a human and really, again, kind of creating the kind of life that is going to be most meaningful for us. And something that a quote that we’ve come across actually, that really speaks to us so much is that in a really broad sense of self care is about creating a life that we don’t need to escape from. And so that can be literally creating things, but also just being intentional about how we’re how we’re living our lives, how we’re spending our time. And so, yeah, I’ll stop there for the moment. Because I think it’s something we’ve lost the ability to be intentional. Like we aren’t that intentional. We’re so reactive. The thing I think is important about the creativity piece is that it can be almost meditative. You know often when you’re doing some using that creative element whether it is your cooking supper, whether you are you know, putting Lego set together with your kids, or doing play actually I hate played on I’m glad my kids are not into play. I find it disgusting, is one of the most disgusting things around you know, I’m saying it’s like, it’s like every dirty thing. Booger or whatever. It’s like there forever. So yeah, I’m anti playdough but yeah, when the boys want to throw down with Lego, yeah, I have three young younger younger boys there and but yeah, I definitely think there’s a meditative element in that we all know how that you know, being more mindful or meditative can be so valuable for overall well being. So yeah, thanks for that, Melissa. Going back to to Karen, what about what about connection, especially in a time where, you know, we’re Perry pandemic, will timestamp this, we’re doing this interview on the ninth of December. And, you know, the world’s going up and up and down to in terms of what’s the next little was looking like, but what’s the impact of connection? In your mind? Yeah, so when we talk about connection, we we refer to kind of connecting outwardly, so connecting with others, but also connecting inwards, and really taking stock of what’s important to us what our values are, and using that information to really guide our, our self care. So it’s, you know, it’s again, it’s, we use that terminal in a broad sense. For us with some of the workshops we’ve done, we talked about connecting meaning also becoming aware of what the common workplace hazards are for our profession. Because, really, I think the majority of us never learned about that. And we kind of entered into our careers. kind of blindsided, I think some sometimes about the impact of the hazards. So it’s about being aware of that being aware of our emotions, being aware of how we’re responding, connecting with that part of ourselves, and the, you know, the connecting with a like minded community, and with people who share our values, I think is so important. If, you know, we often talk about, there’s these kind of rules that that women have been living by. And sometimes we’re not even aware that these rules and messages have had a pretty significant impact on us. And it’s going to take a community to start changing those rules. And I think if we try to do this work in isolation, and we try and put self care practices into place in isolation, we’re going to, we’re going to keep struggling, we need, we need encouragement, we need support from others, to help us in taking steps towards connecting with what’s important with us and our values. Because, you know, again, we see self care as a very individual process, right. So things that perhaps replenish me or energize me could be very different than what Melissa or yourself might find energizing. And the only way we can figure that out is really pausing and trying to reconnect with our values and recognizing that that’s also going to probably change during the course of our lifetime, based on our, our age and stage of life, based on our career and where we’re at on our career, but also different life events that happen, you know, the pandemic, for example, is a is something that’s impacted all of us in different ways. And in some, in some respects, people have said it’s, it’s helped them kind of reconnect with what’s really important to them. And unfortunately, not everyone’s been that fortunate to to find some good coming out of the pandemic. But yeah, I think that connection, peace with ourselves and others, is, again, just so foundational to our self care journey. Yeah. And I must say, I think, you know, one of the things that was grateful for during the pandemic was I had, I got to connect with a lot of us got to connect because we had to go to work. And so I’ll be honest with you, even at certain parts of the pandemic, despite the fears, I was looking forward to going to work for that connection piece. And it also highlighted how important it was for many others who have had to stay at home, you know, and, you know, my opinion the next pandemic is a mental health, health tsunami that’s coming I just had a meeting we have to do a show on this about the kids mental health right now. It’s It’s breaking my heart hearing about some of the resource strains but yeah, it really is so important that external connection you know, I did a post not that long ago that my eldest son were were at a tournament a couple months ago and I didn’t realize how much we missed this like I was borderline welling up when we were all collectively cheering our for our our team and have seen the grandparents and seeing smiles on both sides of the the aisle like even I mean, the boy the boy He’s got lit up, I think we lost five one, but we were still so happy to be there. So like these little things, I think you really appreciate it. After it’s been gone. And in terms of the internal, like looking, like looking within ourselves, I do think more of us need to take that time to self reflect, I think, not only is it beneficial to just, you know, re re establish what your values are what’s important to you. But also, I think sometimes it helps when it comes to thinking about some of the good that’s happened in your day and your week, your month, whatever timeline you’re you want to refer to, because sometimes special things are happening, but you’re not taking the time to digest it, because you’re always on the goal. You know, it’s so I think, that real connections side, because I was assuming it was going to be mostly on the external side. But that internal connection piece, as you mentioned, wow. Yeah, that is, you guys are nailing that, as far as I’m concerned. So, Melissa, maybe the last see their compassion? What are some of the nuances when you when you think about compassion? Yes. And probably, you’ll notice, as we’re talking about each of these c’s, there’s a lot of overlap between them. Right. And it’s almost as though you almost you can’t kind of can’t have one without the others in a sense, right? They they’re just so interconnected. And everything that we were just saying about connection really feeds into compassion as well, right. Because once we’re able to take some time be reflective about what’s meaningful for us, right, connecting with the value in our work. Just even connecting with that, that gratitude for others in our in our lives, that really, I think, can facilitate also a sense of compassion for others, and similarly, greater compassion for ourselves, too. And so, again, we really see compassion as being about compassion for others, but also self compassion. And, and similarly, having a recognition of what maybe contributes to us having difficulty with extending compassion to others, or extending compassion to ourselves. And what also may be contributes to us becoming at times overly compassionate for others, or overly compassionate for ourselves, which maybe doesn’t serve us Quite so? Well. And so, you know, one thing that we’ve often reflected on as well is the unfortunate judgments that can come up at times. For mental health professionals in particular, when it comes to it just what how we’re comparing ourselves to others, right? And are our perceptions of our, our other clinicians taking good care of themselves? Are they not taking good care of themselves? How do we measure up in comparison to what we think they’re doing or not doing, which, of course, may not be at all accurate, but by can influence what we think about ourselves, what we think about them, and then also, most importantly, can influence what we do or don’t do, right? What steps we take or don’t take, in regards to our own self care. And I think another huge piece of compassion is also and this has been so important throughout the pandemic, it’s always important, but it’s been even more important and apparent throughout the pandemic, is just also really having compassion for when we’re in a difficult place, like, especially at the onset of the pandemic, right, how everything just got turned upside down for ourselves as mental health professionals shifting to working online, kids being home, right, everything kind of happening from the home, not being able to connect with other people. It’s it’s things are still tough in different ways. But that was a really, really tough period of time for most people. Right. And I think being able to just acknowledge that it was tough, and there’s still things that are tough and that it’s okay for, for us to acknowledge when things are tough again, even as a mental health professional, who maybe others are looking to for guidance or leadership, it’s also okay, if we’re struggling sometimes, right. And I think that’s such a huge piece that really can contribute to more effective self care when we’re able to acknowledge the things that that might be difficult for us as well, especially as health professionals, because we’re often maybe expected to right to be perfect role models of health and wellness. And of course, as we said earlier, like, well, we’re humans first. So we’re not we’re not going to be perfect because nobody can be perfect and that’s okay. And that’s Really what compassion comes down to right, those two words? It’s okay. It’s okay. I gotta say, I think a lot of us struggle with that one. A lot of us like to acknowledge that it’s okay not being okay. Knowing when to reach out, knowing when to slow it down. I think that one is that one a lot of us struggle, especially though, like, maybe not, I don’t know what generation or what age but there’s a certain generation where it’s, you know, seeking help or admitting that you’re you’re struggling to be. Could be a challenge. So I think this is, honestly, I think just one, this is one of the foundational aspects to to self care. Really like having that self compassion? You know, we was one of my favorite shows we did with Michelle’s Sorenson talking about that. And, yeah, it was just one of those things where you realize like, it’s, yeah, foundational. I think, I think probably where it shows up for so many of us, and I would imagine it’s true for other health care providers as well, certainly not just mental health professionals. But, you know, when we have those moments or days, where we feel kind of ineffective, we haven’t been able to help people in the way that we would ideally like, and, you know, some of the conversations I’ve been having with, with some of my colleagues, it really resonates with COVID, you know, feeling sometimes, like they are using all their training all their skills that they have. And it’s interesting, you know, it’s often when they’re working with kids is when I’m hearing this, they’re doing everything they know how to do to try and help kids manage this difficult situation. And yet, really seeing that it’s only going so far. And, you know, recognizing that and trying to find a way with accepting the fact that we we just can’t change the things that are causing people suffering, we can try and help them move through the course of the pandemic in a way that they’re, they’re less impacted. But I think, you know, ultimately, for health care providers, it’s those days when we feel like we’re not, we’re not being as helpful as we would like to be where all the judgments and criticisms and impostor syndrome comes up. Right? And where we really need to take a step back and and find some some self compassion. That’s well put. Yeah, I, as I said, it’s, to me, it’s like just one of those things that is out of all the seas, I think is probably in my mind. One of the more challenging components, especially for seasoned healthcare professionals. So you guys are doing amazing work. Maybe Karen, you could speak to a little bit about, like, when people go to intentional therapists, when they go to your site like, or they connect with you like, what? How does it look like? What are the benefits that they’re going to receive? Yeah, I think I think probably what we’re hearing a lot of positive feedback about is for sure, our monthly newsletter that, that I think for two years, we have consistently sent out a newsletter, the first Friday of each month, and in it we we have a few different sections, playful practice, heartfelt connection, and community connection. And in those different sections, you know, with the community section, we try and introduce them to some other mental health professionals, and we do interviews with them and kind of we we include the transcript. And the heartfelt section is often just just a reflection on often some of our own issues that come up in our own self care, and really trying to be open and be vulnerable, really, with our readers in hopes of giving them the courage to do the same thing and to really reflect on some of their own self care practices. And then of course, the playful practice is about trying to incorporate some playfulness or some humor into self care practices into our members reading their monthly reading. So that’s something that we’ve offered consistently. We often also said And out another communication kind of halfway through the month, that’s a bit shorter. But it’s our way of trying to keep this on people’s radar, right? It’s about kind of this consistent message that this is important. You are your tools, right? We are our tools in the work we do. And we need to take care of our tools. One time, we likened it to a surgeon who needs to make sure that their their instruments are sterilized and well taken care of. And we need to do the same as mental health professionals. So the newsletter is certainly an important piece. And if, on our website, there’s a number of blogs on different topics. There’s links to other podcast interviews we’ve done. And we’ve also done a couple of virtual workshops, where we dive into things at a bit of a deeper level. And one of the things that we’ve been doing more recently, which I think, you know, Melissa, and I have really enjoyed is, the last time we did a workshop, the group that participated in that actually asked for ongoing meetings, to just kind of continue to support them, right, recognizing that maybe a workshop isn’t the best way to help people keep this in the forefront of their minds, right? It may be it is about more consistent conversations, and supporting one another and cheering each other on when we’re doing the things that take courage, but that are really good for overall wellness and self care. I love it. I love it III. I what I love about what you guys are doing kind of Melissa is that a lot of people will acknowledge things are a problem. They’ll bring it to people’s attention. And it stops there. But y’all are being part of the solution. You we call it on the show called Changing the bully, like you guys are willing to, like put yourself out there having the courage and willing to put in your word, efforts that once again, that’s time away from family and all that stuff, but also work in the sea of creativity, to be able to put out these newsletters and workshops. In fact, you’ve given me some ideas to for our wellness program, we should have a meet up I think southern wellness committee, we’re gonna do that before Christmas, just a little 30 minute meet up to see how everyone’s doing, why not the theme of wellness? So, before I I’d be remiss to say like how do Melissa, how do people get a hold of you? How do they sign up for the newsletter? Yes, just go to our website, intentional And people can sign up for our newsletter. Again, our target audience is female mental health professionals. But I it’s really for anyone who resonates with with the messages that we’re sharing. And people can also contact us directly our contact info is on the website, particularly if they might be interested in having a kind of a personalized workshop or small group kind of ongoing experience. We do we we are planning to organize some in the new year, we’re also working on what’s hopefully going to be an online course that that people can access on a bit more of an ongoing basis. So signing up for our newsletter is the best way to stay informed of all of that, but people are also certainly welcome to to contact us directly if there’s anything specific that that might be of interest that we can assist with, we’re always happy to to brainstorm kind of a personalized solution. Because like Karen said earlier, even though there are a lot of common elements to self care, in the end, it’s its individual, right. You mentioned earlier that you hate playdough I actually love playing with Play Doh with my son. I’m not necessarily a huge fan of I don’t know, playing video games, but I’m happy to play with Play Doh with them. But right of course, it’s going to be different for everybody. And Karen’s often talked about before too, that one of the things that she actually really enjoys doing is mowing the lawn for example. And of course not everyone’s going to be on the same page with that either. But the point is, we don’t have to be we just have to know what’s going to work for us. Amen. And I used to hate doing them on but now it’s it’s you get to stack it I like to listen to a show or listen to some beats done that but this is very well put Melissa. Karen, thank you so much for your contribution. Thank you for joining the show. And I have a feeling we’ll be connect Think again in the near future. Thanks so much for having us. It’s just been a pleasure getting to know you a bit better. Absolutely. Thank you so much. This is great. Thanks for listening. If you follow us on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter at Quantcast leave any messages, o’clock cast, nine [email protected] Leave us a five star rating in full effects. Knox and leave us a review on iTunes, on Spotify wherever you listen to your podcasts it makes a difference and helps with the visibility of that show. Yo thanks so much for listening to me to watch what’s going on. Don’t forget to jump on the sovereign Where we’re changing that bogey. And listen, we’ll connect again real soon. Peace

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